People into Cesar Millan are often evangelical. "It works!", "He's right!"
Well, capital punishment has an effect but it is right? And is it the best, most humane and the most effective way?
Here's a campaign set up by many animal welfare organisations coming together to speak out against this fashion for a return to out-moded animal training practises.
http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/
Check out also their page debunking dominance theory. Pack theory really is tedious in the regularity that it crops up. People just feel comfortable with it I guess. I don't.
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Hello,
ReplyDeleteI have been professionally teaching &managing safety, health &environmental risk reduction programs as a national trainer &manager for over 33 years now. This means my profession is to help others understand the importance of learning how to correctly &safely apply the techniques of any potentially dangerous activity. While it is possible that you may be one of those who would rather see the dog euthanized then helped by solutions not from their traditions. It is my hope that you simply are not aware of the thousands of people who do successfully &safely apply Cesar’s way when more traditional methods are not effective for changing their dog’s behavior.
Many have completely closed minds & won’t trouble understanding the amazing grassroots success of this man & his team with the general public. I ask for you to continue reading this email to the end, if you would be at all interested to understanding the non-Hollywood success of this man &his team through so many years.
There are two elements of proof of successful applications of Cesar’s way available for any one’s quick validation needs.
First, Cesar’s TV shows, National Geographic Channel’s” Dog Whisperer”. When you count the number of last chance dogs featured in the episodes, dogs &their families who no one else had been able to help (a requirement to even be considered being on the show), you will be able to count hundreds of dogs over these six years that Cesar’s solutions were DIRECTLY able to provide long term solutions for behavior changes. Long-term change was documented in episode follow-ups, in the book “Dog Whisperer Cesar 1-3 Episode Guide.
The INTERNATIONAL Association of Canine Professionals (I.A.C.P.) , thought so much of Cesar’s solutions, that he & his wife, both were given an HONORARY membership by CEO Martin Deeley, & remain featured on their home page today: http://www.dogpro.org/index.php !
Next ~ indirectly, his many of his techniques have been successfully integrated with other solutions, as well as replicated to easily &safety provide “home solutions” by dog owners who could neither change their dogs behaviors, nor find help to create such change.
There is a yahoo email list to helping others understand & use his solutions appropriately & safely at: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/DogWhispererFans/ Currently, over 3100 list members work together to apply his solutions in appropriate & correct ways, including seeking “professional” help. Over the years, another 20,000 + have come in, solved their problems, &moved on from our high volume list. People can read the success stories in the public archive searchable under any topic of technique that he has provided solutions, in his Four books, Five DVD's or 6 Seasons of "Dog Whisperer" shows.
My www.youtube.com/cjanderson site has videos of many of the over 45 last chance dogs I have saved using Cesar’s way. as a 55 year old, 5’1” tall woman, who is NOT a dog professional of any kind..
If I use the word, ~ “bike” ~ what kind of bike is pictured in your head? I ask this at the beginning of EVERY new safety class. The answer breaks this way. Is it the most popular? (bicycle), the most powerful? (motorcycle) the odd ball (tricycle, unicycle…) or how about what the teacher (boss…) was thinking – an exercise bike? When one tries to use the techniques I am teaching on how to safely use a bicycle, with a motorcycle, not only do they have much trouble, but one could get hurt or even killed from the mis-applications &wrong context with a motorcycle This is the challenge when people are so locked into their own system that they can only underst&from their closed context. A closed mind, will never be successful applying Cesar’s way because they cannot undersand what it takes to be successful.
Sincerely & Respectfully.
Cynthia J Anderson
There are many ways to train a dog and there is a difference between punitive and aversive. Cesar Millan does use exercise, discipline and affection to rehabilitate problem dogs. Because he uses physical touch corrections (or what you call "aversive" training), he is not setting back dog training 50 years (or, come to think of it, maybe it SHOULD be set back a few years...). Rather he is encompassing and accepting the fact that positive training does not always work and is not the be all and end all it is set up to be.
ReplyDeleteYes, positive reinforcement does work. Millan shows that on his show and recommends it in his books and DVDs. But it does not solve every problem.
Should I let a dog run into the street and get hit by a car -- or should I physically haul him back by the leash and save his life? Or...should I simply reward all the times he does NOT run into the street and hope that one of the times he does is not his last action in his lifetime?
Sometimes physical actions are necessary -- just as they are necessary in parenting. We have become so afraid to touch our children, our animals, each other lest someone cry foul (or "abuse!").
Believe me, there is a difference between abusers who physically harm an animal or a child and trainers or parents who use physical touch to correct a child or an animal!
Cesar is not an aversive trainer -- and those who see him as such miss the core of his training. I am not a fanatic, but I do recognize it when a bunch of so-called experts gang up on someone and hound (pun intended) them out of either misplaced jealously or misunderstanding.
Why don't those of you who criticize Cesar get in touch with him or with the Millan Foundation and express your opinions rather than try to raise a ruckus on the internet.
Petitions????? Come on -- petitions should be reserved for people protesting Michael Vick's easy ride back to stardom or the existence of puppy mills or the proliferation of breed specific legislation.
I am so disappointed in people who throw stones at those who are genuinely interested in helping dogs simply because they do not take the time to inform themselves of both sides of an issue. Cesar has professionals and organizations who support him. Why don't you look up some of those?
Put your efforts toward a worthy goal, such as stopping those who set fire to pit bull puppies or pour acid on cats. Those are the real problems. Cesar is one of the good guys.
By the way, did you know that your link to dogwelfarecampaign.org is not working?
ReplyDeleteCesar Millan is not a dog trainer. He rehabilitates dogs. He works with dogs that have been threatened with euthanasia (by trainers and vets) because of behaviors the trainers either can't change or won't even try to change.
ReplyDeleteCesar does believe that exercise, discipline (in the form of rules, boundaries and limitations, not punishment), and affection are REQUIREMENTS, not electives. A dog owner must fulfill his dog's needs before fulfilling his own wants.
Cesar does use leash corrections and touch corrections. He also uses treats and toys, depending on what it is he is 'fixing' for the dog. I've seen him use all four - and all four were effective when used (as Cesar does) in the right context.
One has to wonder how many of the folks who signed the alleged 'petition' have actually taken the time to try to understand Cesar's philosophy. There are vast numbers of people out here who HAVE bothered to learn it, and to learn how to apply that philosophy to whatever method we happen to be using.
There are people in all corners of the world who have learned from Cesar to be calm, assertive pack leaders, and how to have a happy, balanced pet who does not misbehave if there doesn't happen to be a treat or a toy handy at the moment.
Thanks to Cesar's work, my own dogs are happy and healthy, and they're not overweight from eating treats every time I ask them to do something.
Bad-mouthing and bashing a person with as much common sense and effective work histories as Cesar has does not strike me as being very professional behavior. Surely you have something better to do with your time than argue against something you know nothing about. Frankly, I thought that kind of behavior was reserved for the American Congress and Senate.
Thank you,
Kaelinda
Having taken on dogs every bit as bad as CM deals with, and in some cases worse, I can guarentee that done properly, possitive methods works just as well if not better than his methods. Positive methods is not just putting treats into a dog's mouth, in fact, I rarely use treats but do use what the dog will work for no matter what that is.
ReplyDeleteCJ Anderso, I am shocked that someone who has working for so long in your profession says it is ok to put the owner of the dogs in so much danger by using the methods that CM uses. Have you tried them yourself on a very big dog?
Yes I do understand his methods, I don't have a closed mind, if I did I wouldn't be rehabitating dogs they way I do now. It is safer for the owner and the dogs and helps the bonding.
The aggression used by people who are for CM methods to people who are against them says it all, says so much about these people, they are basically agressive people and will use aggression before anything else. Not being an agressive person and do't want to fight a dog to get what I want just as I don't want to fight my husband, children etc to get what I want when I can do it by using my brains in a much easier way.
Anyone can use brawn, strength, aggression, bullying etc, but it takes a special person who can turn these dogs round by using true positive methods.
your dog Grey is beautiful. I run the only licensed 501c3 animal care facility in the nation for German Wirehaired Pointers.
ReplyDeleteWe have used a variety of methods for rehabilitation of our 300 dogs that have come into our program, but the foundation of our program is Strong Leadership. Many of our dogs as they are strong working dogs, require direction and follow through. We have never used abusive methods...truth is, most are dumped into shelters because they have crumbled under the hunter's heavy hand.
I find Cesar Millan methods to be that of peace, harmony with nature. Our dogs have benefited from instituting his methods of relaxation, calm energy.
I am curious why you do not have a petition against such trainers as Brad Pattison?
I'm not going to go into detail why I posted the petition on my own blog because I chose to do so. I'm based in the UK and much of the equipment used by Mr Millan is not allowed in the UK. This speaks for itself. I don't agree with pack leader, dominance theory and have looked into the evidence for these theories and have found them to be flawed. These are my opinions. Perhaps you'd all like to do your own blogs explaining the scientific basis of his methods. I'm sure my dog Grey is happy that I don't spend most of the day poking and jabbing him to do something he hasn't learned yet. As for Brad, yes, he looks horrible too. I'm sure if he came to do a tour in the UK and went on TV here I may post about him too.
ReplyDeleteGWPLady, you may find that you get better results by using positive methods as they should be used and not as many people seem to think they are. Have you taken on a Staffy, Rottie, Doberman, Malanois etc, that has been abused and turned agressive, you won't get very far with this type of dog using those methods, except in the fastest ambulance into the nearest A & E. Strange how fighting dogs have been turned round to be good with other dogs and live normal lives by only using positive methods but this seems to be ignored.
ReplyDeleteLeadership does not mean bullying, it is leading from the front and teaching a dog what is wanted and not punishing him for doing what dogs do. A good leader doesn't need to show their physical strength, they get what they want by using their brains and not brawn.
As for dogs being dominant, do we call spoilt brat children dominant? No, we call them spoilt brats than need to learn ground rules but the same behaviour in a dog is the dog trying to take the world over. Dogs like children need boundaries, you don't need to use physical violence to teach a dog boundaries,
Yes CM does now use some positive methods, but that doesn't excuse the abuse he uses. If a parent gave their child some sweets or a treat after they beat them with a stick, they are still abusing the child.
There is no excuse for abuse no matter what it is, what else is done or the person doing the abuse, it is still abuse.
Sorry Grey's mum, I find that people who think it is ok to abuse because they also use nice kind methods an insult to everyone.
Please reread my post...I do not use abusive methods, I use CM's methods. We do GWP's, not other breeds.
ReplyDeleteI have many years under my belt...and GWP's can be very sharp dogs. That is why Cesar's methods and energy is perfect for rehabilitation.
Ask the UK GWP Folks about me and my rehabilitation efforts with the Breed...they all know me well.
GWPlady - you say that CM's methods are not adversive. I've had a look through the book and watched the TV programme. I don't understand how sitting a thin slip lead (that doesn't slacken off), or a metal choke chain high on the dog's neck which CM clearly states as the most sensitive and then using sharp sideways corrections and giving the dog such a short lead on long fast paced walks where they have difficulty breathing is not adversive. I've seen episodes where he has members of his film crew then follow him constantly jabbing the dog in the leg. My dog if it isn't agressive before this treatment would have a hard time not reacting to this. And then so much of his actions are backed up by bogus claims about dog psychology that are simply not backed up by years of research in the field. Has CM submitted any peer reviewed papers do you know?
ReplyDelete"Has CM submitted any peer reviewed papers do you know?"
ReplyDeleteHa! mighty fine question. I'll bet it would be filled with so much rhetoric about 'energy' that the panel of reviewers wouldn't be able to get through it without spewing milk out their noses. (or beer, I have no doubt that they'd turn that into a kegger just to get to the end of the paper without falling asleep)
How about this:
Position statements from American Veterinary Society for Animal Behaviour:
- on Dominance: http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance%20statement.pdf
- on Punishment: http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/Combined_Punishment_Statements.pdf
Article on 2009 study on confrontational dog training. "If You're Aggressive, Your Dog Will Be Too, Says Veterinary Study", in ScienceDaily online journal. The original study is available for a fee, however this article gives an overview. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090217141540.htm
I also with that everyone would do a bit of research on Learning Theory (both Operative and Classical Conditioning) and understand the actual meaning of words such as positive reinforcement, positive punishment, negative reinforcement and negative punishment, and how the term 'aversive' differs from P+ and R-.
I am seeing some major misunderstanding of these terms, and especially HOW to apply each properly (i.e. the example of a dog running into traffic.). Read Karen Pryor's "Don't Shoot the Dog"
My biggest grief is the total lack of understanding of management, and how it is an integral part of any training. Training such as cesar's (and brad pattison or Don Sullivan, to name some other TV 'trainers') purposefully puts dogs into positions where they are not able to behave as the handler wishes, and then that handler feels justified in reefing on the dog.
Watch this video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw6ONwp-42A, it is a very short intro into differences between stressed and happy dogs. Then watch Cesar or Brad on mute, just watch the dogs. pay attention to them at the beginning of a shot, and it will be obvious to you what is being edited out of the show.
For good measure, read "Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson, and watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/user/AnimalPortraits#p/u/4/bSRlAzhuBkI She is an amazing trainer, zero corrections to get to this point. She is VERY skilled at getting her dogs onto a variable schedule of reinforcement (which means that she teaches with food and very effectively 'weans off'.
Unfortunately, all the scientific papers and TV sound muting cannot deny the success experienced by those of us who have used many of Cesar Millan's methods to great success. My rescue hound dog leads a happy life with me, my disabled sister and 5 cats -- all thanks to my watching episodes of the Dog Whisperer, reading his books and implementing appropriate methods. Eve, a Plott Hound that was found emaciated and abandoned at a gas station on New Year's Eve 6 years ago, has learned not to tree my cats, will let me put my hand in her food bowl and walk on a loose leash, thanks to Cesar. She had a play date recently with two dogs of comparable size to her that she has met before and three chihuahuas who she had never met before. They all enjoyed a stress-free and happy evening together. I thank Cesar for that.
ReplyDeleteI have found some things about positive training and trainers that I find either distateful or patronizing, but I would not presume to criticize such renowned trainers as Dr. Ian Dunbar or such celebrity personalities as Victoria Stilwell.
I say use the methods that work best -- it's the end result, a happy, balanced dog and a happy, balanced owner, that counts.
Call off your witch huts and get serious about real animal abuse.
Another example of human chauvinism. Make the dog understand human language instead of learning the language of the dog. Simply put, that is what Cesar does, he teaches the language of the dog! That is our responsibility.
ReplyDelete